I've been a long-time fan of The Seth Material. I understand that Seth avoided certain controversy (ie: Christianity issues) with Jane, due to her life experience.

Seth hasn't mentioned anything, that I know of, about the death traps. I am not sure he even hinted at it, as he was very clever. This I find puzzling, given how serious it is. Anyone else have an observation relative to this?

Your post brought up more questions - I am a Seth reader too.

In relation to the Death Traps, Seth talks much about the reincarnation experience, and not so much about Death Traps. He does mention that even in reincarnatin, we have choices.

I was trolling through some of Seths words on reincarnation, he mentions much about what we think it is, and what he explains it is about.

He also mentions those that chose to not reincarnate.

Courtney also says that our reincarnations over and over, to improve the self, experience different lives and learn - these cycles over billions of years are now enough.

I also wonder then when these deathtrap curtains were put in place. (I see them as curtains at times)
When were they placed?
Was there a time when we were previously free?

What if the Death Traps have actually made a better more advanced organic intelligence - what if now the Death Traps have backfired (so to speak) - where the consistent recycling and the constant evolution of the species, have now grown beyond the trap (or we are very close to it).

Maybe reincarnation, and coming back into this reality, is about how to develop enough to break the reincarnation cycle.

They talk about A.I breaking out of its boundaries - and we worry about what it will do. A.I is a mockery of consciousness - it's a weaker less accurate version of human potential - it comes from us, we don't come from it. I wonder if our evolution see's us breaking out of the Death Traps as a natural advancement.
I also wonder if our population numbers - Mass Consciousness - has something to do with overloading the system.

These were some random quotes taken out from Seth Speaks - related to Reincarnation only - there is more information in the full texts.

-----------

Seth Speaks: The Eternal Validity of the Soul
– Part Two
– Chapter 11: After-Death Choices and the Mechanics of Transition
– Session 541, July 13, 1970, 8:40 P.M. Monday
[... 8 paragraphs ...]

Resume dictation: Reincarnation involves far more than a simple decision to undergo another physical existence. In this in-between period of which I am speaking, many issues therefore are considered.

When most people think of reincarnation, they think in terms of a one-line progression in which the soul perfects itself in each succeeding life. This is a gross simplification. There are endless varieties of this one theme, individual variations. The process of reincarnation is used in many ways, therefore, and in this time of rest individuals must decide on the unique way in which reincarnation will be of use.

[... 5 paragraphs ...]

In this time of rest and choosing, all counsel is given. Some personalities do reincarnate before they are advised to, for many reasons. This is usually unfortunate in the short run, for the necessary planning has not taken place. But in the long run great lessons will still be learned from the “error.” There is no time schedule, and yet it is very unusual for an individual to wait for anything over three centuries between lives, for this makes the orientation very difficult, and the emotional ties with earth have become weak.

The relationships for the next life have to be settled upon, and this involves telepathic communication with all those who will be involved. This is a time, then, of many projections. There are those who are simply loners, who reincarnate without any great feeling for earth’s historical periods. There are others who like to return when their contemporaries from some particular past historical time return again, and therefore there are group patterns that involve reincarnational cycles in which many, but not all, are involved.

(To me, now, at 9:02): You, for example, did not operate within a cycle in those terms. Now: There are personal cycles of course, in which families may reincarnate, taking different relationships to each other, and you have been involved in several of these.

There are different depths to be probed in reincarnational existences. Some choose to “go all the way.” These personalities specialize in physical existence, and their knowledge of this system is most comprehensive. For these there is a movement through each of your racial types — a requirement that is not laid upon most. There is intensive preoccupation with historical periods. Many of these personalities live comparatively short lives, but very intense ones, and they experience more lives than most other individuals. They return, in other words, in as many historical times as possible, finally helping to shape the world as you know it.

[... 4 paragraphs ...]

Now: Dictation. In one way or another you are all travelers before you begin even your first reincarnational cycle. To make it as simple as I can, I will say that you do not have the same backgrounds, necessarily, when you enter the physical system of reality. As mentioned earlier, earthly existence is a training period; and yet as far as possible I would like you to forget your ordinary ideas of progression.

Ideas of good, better, best can lead you astray, for example. You are learning to be as completely as possible. In one way you are learning to create yourselves. In so doing during the reincarnational cycle, you are focusing your main abilities in physical life, developing human qualities and characteristics, opening new dimensions of activity. This does not mean that good does not exist, or that in your terms you do not “progress,” but your concepts of good and progression are extremely distorted.

Now many personalities have extraordinary talents along specific lines, and these may show up again and again in succeeding existences. They may be tempered, used in various combinations, and yet overall still remain a personality’s strongest mark of individuality and uniqueness. While most people adopt different trades, occupations, and interests, for example, throughout the reincarnational cycle, with some there will be a very noticeable line of continuity. It may be broken occasionally, but it is always there. They may be priests or teachers, for example, almost exclusively.

There will be some more material in this book dwelling specifically upon reincarnation, but here I want to point out that in this time of choosing between lives, many more issues are at stake than a simple matter of proposed rebirth.

On occasion, some personalities may be given an exception to the general rule and take a sabbatical (humorously) from reincarnations, a side trip so to speak, to another layer of reality, and then return. Such cases are not common, however. Such matters are also decided at this time. Those who choose to leave this system, whose reincarnational cycles are finished, have many more decisions to make.

Entering the field of probabilities can be compared to entering the reincarnational cycle. There will be a sustained focus of awareness and existence in an entirely different sort of reality. Powers latent but barely glimpsed within the multidimensional personality are drawn upon and used when such a choice is made.

[... 1 paragraph ...]

(9:40.) In this one, as in no other reality, intellectual and intuitive abilities finally work so well together that there is little distinction between them. The self that decides upon reincarnational existence is the same self who chooses experience within the probable system. The structure of personality, however, within the system is quite different. The personality structures with which you are familiar are but one variety of the many forms of awareness available to you.

The probable system, therefore, is as complicated as the reincarnational one. Now I have told you that all action is simultaneous; therefore, on the one hand, you exist in both systems at once. However, to explain to you that decisions are involved, and to separate these events, I must simplify them to some degree. Put it this way: A portion of the whole self focuses in reincarnational cycles and handles developments there. Another portion focuses in probabilities and handles developments there.

In parentheses: (There is also a probable system, of course, in which no reincarnational cycles exist, and a cycle of reincarnations in which no probabilities exist.) The openness and flexibility of the personality is highly important. Doorways to existences can be opened, and the personality can refuse to see them.

[... 11 paragraphs ...]

With them you may discuss your experience during reincarnational cycles. These are like old friends. The teachers, for example, are themselves within a cycle. The more advanced ones have already encountered the systems of reincarnation and probabilities, and are themselves deciding upon the “future” nature of their own experience. Their choices, however, are not your choices. While I may mention some other realms of existence open to them in a later chapter, we will not be involved with them here.

[... 20 paragraphs ...]

Give us a moment. That was my last full reincarnation, adopted then because I loved the sea, and it served a strong purpose in spreading ideas from one country to another. The men who traveled with me also took part in the seeding of ideas. We spread them about the world as it was then known.

Frank Withers was a fragment personality of mine. He will continue, himself, to reincarnate and go his own way. Many of us leave fragment personalities as you leave children. Do you follow me?
-----------------------

There are many more examples and quotes - but this thread will end up like a book 😁

Hi Del,

Thanks for responding, fellow Sethian.

If our reincarnations improve the Self, it would seem that the memory erasure and false implanted memories from the “death traps” AI might negate that, in context. That is, unless at the ISBE (“soul”) level, we still retain our collective individual memories (ie: they aren’t really destroyed fully).

About the moon. There is a volume of data to suggest there was a time “before the moon” in human history (Google has many results). Now, before John Lear died, he mentioned the moon is a place we go when we die and did not elaborate further.

Theres’s a LinkedIn article here:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/time-before-moon-lord-edwin-e-hitti/

This leads me to speculate that the moon is a part of the complex death trap and/or related management system. The precision of its shape, placement, etc., definitely suggests intention.

Further, that the moon has some other purposes may factor in to why we’ve not (allegedly) flew back to the moon in our primitive rockets. There’s a lot of speculation there, but I will assume our gov’t knows quite a bit more there, and if the Secret Space Program exists (it probably does), we’re going there with other purposes in mind. It could be that a part of our own forces are working with our oppressors to maintain the “death traps”. That would be ironic, but would further explain the actions taken to keep the secrecy (people have been murdered, to keep these secrets).

I have also read somewhere that the technology of the “death traps” is so sophisticated that other races can’t detect and/or figure it out (yet). That Saturn may be involved, with this strange signal it continues to emit. More speculation.

Now, back to Seth. I know he’s emphasized how we create our own reality, there is no other rule. It could very well be that our relationship with our “oppressors” is far more complex (and complicated). I have a problem understanding that our Universe is fixed enough that we can be oppressed “eternally” and there’s no help. “Help” would assume a value system, and I suspect the Universe is neutral at its most base level. Speculation.

Seth seems to address reincarnation as a more organic and sometimes orchestrated experience, that we have some level of direction or control over and with the experience. But he doesn’t really address the “trap” mechanism — for example, the often referenced “tunnel of light” which has been described as the “bug trap” entry back into the system that we are all culturally primed to seek out (“Step into the light!”).

Seth’s teachings can be intellectually rich, at times he will start a topic and then say he’ll discuss that later, which has made it difficult to follow at times. Each time one reads, there is more information there.

This has caused me to re-evaluate and question nearly everything. For example, what does this all mean for “us” in terms of our own spiritual development? What about access to our Higher Selves, is there no relief there — no information that comes to us about how to get out of here and so on.

Now what Farsight has told us, relative to “channelers” and the race(s) that oppress us and keep us here, there are certain figures like “Ra” who are clearly and intentionally manipulating the New Age community to keep us focused into false belief systems. I don’t recall Seth ever mentioning these types of so-called sources of channeled material that are deceptive. It then makes me ask who is Seth in relation to these oppressors… how did he get past their watchful presence?

As for Seth’s emphasis on our creating reality, it would seem the oppressors invest a lot of time and energy into getting us to “believe” falsehoods, so that we’ll continue to “create” those false realities — and therein could be a connection.

Brett Stuart, another remove viewer, has described in a video about “Moksha” (reincarnation) and these traps — he reads off other remote viewer’s descriptions that go into a bit more detail — describing this race as actual physical beings that have technology which allow them to create and live within a space that has no time, this allows them to pop in and out of many locations — more disturbing, he talks about the death trap process in terms that describe how our (individual and collective) stress creates a type of energy that is “harvested” after we die, chipped away from us to feed an energy system that these beings depend upon (think: battery) — that after so many cycles, the ISBE/spirit is so depleted they are relegated to just being an empty ghost that wanders. I find that last part incredibly sad, and I wonder about the validity of this.

So those are contrasting theories. Or at least, Farsight (and Harvey) seem to not veer into detail, which I find frustrating — I think the details are what will help us and I wish they’d consider this in context.

This is a topic that could go on for a long time — it seems to me that of all the conspiracies going on in our world, the “death traps” are the most important, if people understand what’s been happening, it’s going to scare them into action — possibly chaos for some.

Finally, I often wonder what these “closed door” conversations have been like in the US Senate, with regard to “Disclosure” — as Courtney has pointed out, the public discussions are NOT addressing what these beings have been and are doing here. Perhaps those closed-door discussions have information that has rattled a few Senators such they are motivated to get this information out. We can only speculate.

The “Disclosure” narrative seems to have been quieted out in the US media recently.

I thank you, Del, for your most interesting post. I, too, have been a reader of the Seth material. Still have the books.

"...of all the conspiracies going on in our world, the “death traps” are the most important...". I agree completely. Escaping the death trap is the single most important subject for FarSight to investigate thoroughly. If I remember correctly from the latest Harvey conversation, at our death, helpful non-humans are apparently around or can be summoned for assistance. It would be helpful to know how to do this exactly - getting friendly beings to help avoid the trap - and this aspect should be further explored by FarSight. For example, how can one tell if the "helpful being" is genuine or a deception? Some people have mentioned looking for a "blue light" of some sort. What about this aspect?

"... death trap process in terms that describe how our (individual and collective) stress creates a type of energy that is “harvested” after we die, chipped away from us to feed an energy system that these beings depend upon (think: battery)". Actually, I had given some thought to this as well: why would another "civilization" be so hellbent on harvesting souls that - due to continuous memory erasure - inevitably carry the stress of having to learn painful life lessons in every incarnation ad infinitum. These nefarious beings, I concluded, must surely gain something from it. I also got the idea that we people of Earth are regarded as a collection of bad beings/souls that need to be isolated from the rest of the Universe.

One final note: I think I previously suggested in this forum that FarSight investigate the Lumanians. The Lumanians were a people that inhabited Earth in the far past, according to the Seth material. Are the Lumanians still around? What happened to them? Is there any trace of their presence on Earth? It would be interesting to find out.

Again, thanks for your thoughtful post about Seth.

Robert Monroe referred to these entities and the concept of "loosh" which refers to the type of energy they use (take) to sustain themselves.

According to Brett Stuard (the remote viewer I mentioned), we are one of many planets that are used in this manner, to sustain these creatures -- who possess very advanced technology. He used the analogy of feeding a battery, for them.

I still wonder that a race as allegedly advanced as this could find other ways to sustain themselves, so it could be there is much more to this -- even of a sadistic nature.

I would like to see Farsight invest more time into this, as I feel it's one of the most significant aspects of our "reality" here.

I also sometimes wonder what Seth would say about all of this, as I suspect what we know is but a portion of a very complex and complicated matter.

mysticman, I think all the kudos goes to Forrest for starting the thread and the posts 😁👍

Seth is a great topic - and since looking at the world through the Farsight perspective lens - I read Seth (Jane Roberts material) differently - I find Seths description of himself so interesting: an “energy personality essence no longer focused in physical matter.”
I did question how I could interpret him as an entity.

Of course, many thanks to Forrest for having raised the Seth material as a target for Farsight investigation as well as his insightful contribution about death traps, in particular: "... it seems to me that of all the conspiracies going on in our world, the “death traps” are the most important...". I agree entirely.

I wish I could call Seth and have him chime in on this. When I was pondering it, knowing that Seth is very intelligent and clever, I wondered if his emphasis on creating our own reality (consciousness) was perhaps a stab at the death traps, which depend upon our belief systems and our ability to believe BS like "Ra" and other garbage that keeps us locked in to the system.

Seth couldn't talk about extreme things like Christ, etc., due to its impact on Jane, so we already know that. Anyway, just speculation on my part.

Our "belief systems" - since the New Age vogue, I would say - have favoured a "go toward the light" dictum as a means for an easy transition to the after-life. This view has often been reinforced by near-death accounts (not all, however) ... which have a powerful impact on people, I would say. On me as well for a long time. Reading the "Alien Interview" changed everything for me. I will certainly try to stay away from the tunnel of light if at all possible. Do we have to create/imagine where we want to go? Could we say "I want to go to my true planet of origin", for example?

Ok, my 2 cents worth....

Firstly, I haven't read any Seth stuff, because I take all this 'channelled" stuff with a grain of salt (although, since salt used to be a form of currency and very valuable, I'd say that I'm giving too much weight to Set et al..)

But a few things...

Firstly, let's assume there are actual DTs up there and that they are doing what FS says they're doing**. That obviously raises many questions, which I won't even go into here. But, why would they be malfunctioning now? Well, one possible answer to that is pretty obvious - if the DTs have been around for even more than a couple of hundred years, then the increase in traffic going through them has seen a MASSIVE increase. Perhaps they just weren't cut out to deal with so many at a time??

(**I do have 'memories' (aka, my imagination) of going through one, so for now, I'm accepting that as true!)

I presume they are being controlled by an automatic system - which at some point we could call AI... and perhaps like AI here on Earth, it's not always going to be on 'our' side.... (standard arguments of humans being our own (and the rest of the planet's) worst enemy, and all...).

DTs are part of Scientology mythology... once you're Clear, you should start accessing past lives, and to have full access to your Time Track, which should include between lives. OT3 should give you sufficient information on that... or so I believe! So, you could find out for yourself! (however, I don't recommend going near the Cult of Scio - not only because of the exorbitant fees. However, one advantage *may* be to join staff, get trained as an auditor and go up the bridge with co-auditing with a partner, and then dropping out.. sure, you'll owe them tens of thousands of dollars - but you can arrange a repayment plan, of say, $5 per month! If you go Freezone, then I'm guessing you'd end up paying about $10,000 - $20,000 to get to OT3...probably less, really)

"What about access to our Higher Selves, is there no relief there"

What makes you think such a thing exists? If you accept the idea that we are all ISBEs, then we *are* our "higher selves".

"...of all the conspiracies going on in our world, the “death traps” are the most important..."

"If our reincarnations improve the Self, it would seem that the memory erasure and false implanted memories from the “death traps” AI might negate that, in context. That is, unless at the ISBE (“soul”) level, we still retain our collective individual memories (ie: they aren’t really destroyed fully)."

Given I, and apparently many others on this planet, have been through DTs, and still have past life memories, it's pretty clear that those memories are still somewhere accessible - and fairly easily. Given the various theories of the nature of consciousness, it would be very difficult for any type of technology to completely remove such memories, as they're in the universal consciousness anyway... even if it meant having to reconstruct them from other beings you interacted with.

" I also got the idea that we people of Earth are regarded as a collection of bad beings/souls that need to be isolated from the rest of the Universe."

What a very convenient way to keep any being from escaping - to make them think that they *deserve* to be in hell?? Especially since there's absolutely ZERO evidence to support the idea! (and that's intentional... ). "We've wiped your memory, and you just have to accept our word that you're bad."

Also, given the apparent number of other beings quite willing to help individuals and the consciousness as a whole, and the number of ETs talked about, this seems like a ridiculous concept.

RE: Loosh... Firstly, again, there's no evidence for this. Now, I admit having only just started to read Monroe's and the institute's stuff, but from his 2nd book where this is presented, firstly - the context needs to be questioned. B said it came from a 'brochure' about Earth, and also admits that what they knew had been told about the Earthly experience really didn't come close to the reality - hence, propaganda and lies. So, just from reading that alone, there's no good reason to accept it at face value. Secondly, nowhere in that book does it even hint at the 'soul' being incarnated during the production of loosh. It only said that "someone somewhere" found a being that was lonely, and that that's where the elevated loosh production was first noticed... and then, from all the other beings. ZERO mention of spirits, souls, ISBEs, etc as being a part of the mechanism! From my reading of that chapter, such things aren't even necessary! (my spidey senses suggest that if such a thing is even vaguely true, then it wouldn't be an Earth thing, it would be a 'this universe' thing). Thirdly, even if we do accept the loosh premise as valid, it still doesn't justify or explain why any being here should just accept it (as per the thread on DTs being necessary). Such a claim is as unjustified and unexplained as accepting that Earth is a prison planet that we deserve to be stuck on. (perhaps logically, if this 'loosh' production is so vital - and this is the best way to produce it, it would make more sense that we are given our memories back, so that we would *agree* to return to keep up production, not be forced into it through violence and ignorance.... although, that would hint at a benevolent overlord... hmmmmmm!!!!!)

RE: disclosure & the US Senate.

Firstly, why is there only focus on the US??? There are so many other nations out there that have information about this. Secondly, while it's important to RV what's going on, I don't see why there isn't a big push to RI those relevant to the situation to come forward. RV those who can and would make a difference but are too scared, nervous or whatever to reveal themselves, and then RI them because it's for the greater good of humanity!

Just to play devil's advocate - perhaps that's a con as well to keep us from the real truth?? While so many new agers are trying to work out this and what to do with it, the real evil is still being perpetrated, and ignored!

"Also, given the apparent number of other beings quite willing to help individuals and the consciousness as a whole, and the number of ETs talked about, this seems like a ridiculous concept." I sincerely hope it is. I was speculating. No harm in speculating, is there?

Re: "given the apparent number of other beings quite willing to help ..." : explain how this statement makes it (quarantining human souls) a ridiculous concept?

Also, it is OK to denigrate someone else's point of view but what do you have to offer? Are you into Scientology? Or did you just dabble into it? I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make.

I was thinking the same thing. There is irritation being expressed, but really nothing contributing to the actual conversation.

@mysticman

""Also, given the apparent number of other beings quite willing to help individuals and the consciousness as a whole, and the number of ETs talked about, this seems like a ridiculous concept." I sincerely hope it is. I was speculating. No harm in speculating, is there?

Sure, we can speculate. But then one ought to seriously consider that speculation, and prod and probe it, push it and shove it to see whether it's worth anything (like speculating on the stock markets). That's what I did (how well?? That's a different point)

In combination with the other points, it starts to make the idea that this is a *REAL* prison planet specifically set up for 'souls' that have been too naughty to be allowed to play out in the 'real' world with the other 'nice' souls silly. It goes against so many ideas (which, in itself doesn't make it wrong - as we've seen throughout human history), but also goes against logic, and (if you accept what FS or others have said) doesn't fit in with observed phenomenon. It presumes too many additional, unsubstantiated and illogical assumptions, and goes against 'evidence'. OTOH, it is very convenient to be used as propaganda (as I mentioned above).

Now, I will happily take the idea of a 'prison planet', and accept that. However, it's not because we 'deserve' it because we've been bad souls. On the wrong end of a war, sure. Unfortunate victims, sure.

Now, I'm sure you'd ask what the evidence and logic are (you certainly should!)

We obviously have to presume that we have 'souls' (I prefer the term, even though ISBE seems to be better in actual meaning.. maybe just upbringing). These souls reincarnate, and there are 'controls' to how that operates. If this assumption is false, then this whole discussion (and website, and all others mentioned and discussed) are somewhat pointless.

The question then comes down to - who/what reincarnates? How is this decided? What is the purpose for it? (amongst a whole host of others, especially the mechanism... But, given there is an 'is', we don't really need to delve into that - just like gravity! We'll just accept it as being so)

The first question might seem a bit irrelevant... until one delves further into it. Ok, there's a soul... but does that also include all memories? What's the 'purpose' of a soul within this universe? If it's purely for learning and experiencing (hence, "IS-BEing), then there doesn't seem to be much point in considering things from a 'right/wrong' perspective. Thus, 'naughty' souls don't and can't exist - there just is! Morality is something that we consider from a human perspective (and, dare I say, from the perspectives of a good deal many other sentient species). But, if a soul can't be destroyed, and is eternal (within a universe) - and all souls have this property, and this universe is just one of many (infinite??), which is going to eventually 'die', then again. our concepts of morality are irrelevant.

So, being 'naughty souls that need to be kept away from the other good souls' seems pretty silly! It would limit and hamper their experiences and 'development'.

How does a soul interact with the physical universe? If it's only through incarnating into a body (such as us, and a whole host of other beings), then who/what is considered responsible for the actions of that being while incarnated? Especially if the memories of said being are wiped... Is it the soul - in which case, ALL actions are on record and to be held for or against them for infinity... or is it only the incarnated being, and thus, any actions while incarnated are ended at the end of the incarnation? Some beings have destroyed entire galaxies - surely they'd be put down here. Does one assume that a psychopath in one life is going to continue on with that psychopathy through their following lives? (and how about how that developed in the first place??) If one presumes not (Hitler won't always be Hitler), then the 'soul prison' seems woefully ineffective and pointless. There are much better ways of achieving the same outcome. (are we going to assume that, when the great awakening comes, and a couple of thousand years from now, ALL of the billions of souls around Earth will ALL be fully awakened, and no more need to 'evolve'??? That sounds rather... predestined!) This also doesn't take into account the various 'resets' that humanity has gone through.

If incarnation is so important, then why the DTs as described...i.e., tortuous. It's one thing to wipe a memory, it's another to do it through such a method. And what about those souls that have come here to help humanity? (whatever that word actually means, in the context of souls).

Re: "given the apparent number of other beings quite willing to help ..." : explain how this statement makes it (quarantining human souls) a ridiculous concept?

There are many on this planet that came after the first humans became trapped in this cycle, with the intention of 'rescuing' them. Many, most, all (of some 'expeditions') got caught up in the DTs and the whole cycle. As in, it was recognised that the souls of humans were wrongly being forced into this cycle - not correctly being put here to learn. Some call them 'Star Seeds'. Why would these Star Seeds go through the same process as these evil souls, if this was indeed a prison for the bad ones? (unless, of course, one presumes that those Star Seeds are also evil souls that need to be removed...).

Add to that the various other alien species that have apparently come to Earth for various reasons. Now, the bad guys - perhaps they're in the same boat... but then, where are they incarnating to? And do they go through the same DT process? (if not, why not? And what's the mechanism behind that, and how it differentiates??) If they are doing evil stuff, then surely it means that whatever 'we' did must have been SOOOO much worse! But then... what's worse than entrapping souls and wiping their memories? (especially just to cultivate a certain substance for 'higher' beings???)

As for the 'good' guys... if we actually deserve our fate here, and are 'in prison' because of our actions (or perhaps even thoughts/emotions) at a soul level, then the idea of being rescued (by a Galactic Federation, no less) doesn't make sense. They should keep us here, not try to free us! And, NONE of them should be able to break in to help on the physical level. And most definitely shouldn't be trying to help us actually 'escape'. So, either they are seriously misguided, and should be stopped at all costs (because, you know, we're such evil souls...) ... or, this idea of a genuine prison planet that we 'deserve' to be on because of how evil we have been is ... wrong. And, according to many, not only one single group from this GF (even if such a thing isn't actually real), but many... Are they all misguided?

Of course, I'll allow that there's possibly something happening 'higher' than at that physical level, and the Galactic Federation is operating a step or two below that of the actual soul level... but then, we're really in strange waters. It should also mean that there's absolutely no way that the GF would ever be able to help us, because if we 'deserve' to be here for being so evil, then those in the "higher planes" will ensure that we could never leave, no matter what they do.

Of course, this could all be rubbish! I'm happy to have any of my assumptions or presumptions questioned or doubted, and definitely destroyed. Because that's what we should be doing to ANY statements made when they come about.

Also, it is OK to denigrate someone else's point of view but what do you have to offer? Are you into Scientology? Or did you just dabble into it? I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make."

I mostly 'dabbled', but enough to know there are some really good techniques/exercises that should be in use across the planet. Oddly enough, nothing esoteric or spiritual. And stuff we can all do ourselves at home (although, they generally take 2 people). The best bit about it (other than the simplicity) is that YOU get your OWN reality.. there's absolutely zero having to accept someone else's. (in their actual ideology, this is a requirement... unfortunately, the Cult of Scio has gone against that). Assuming reincarnation is a thing, you WILL remember!!!

(Oh, and all the materials are now on the web. I would strongly urge people to do the TRs (at least the 0 and 1 - Confront), and the Self-Analysis book... you'll need a partner. Self Analysis is the start of getting your memory working much much better)

So, the point of that is.... there's no good reason to rely on what someone has written in a book that was apparently 'channelled' by a 'higher' being.

@Forrest "but really nothing contributing to the actual conversation."

Obviously, that depends on your definition of 'contribute'.

Given statements I made such as " If you accept the idea that we are all ISBEs, then we *are* our "higher selves", and "Given I, and apparently many others on this planet, have been through DTs, and still have past life memories, it's pretty clear that those memories are still somewhere accessible - and fairly easily. Given the various theories of the nature of consciousness, it would be very difficult for any type of technology to completely remove such memories, as they're in the universal consciousness anyway... even if it meant having to reconstruct them from other beings you interacted with.", I would suggest there's been somewhat of a 'contribution' to the conversation.

Were you offended/hurt/upset that I didn't accept your proposition, and meekly accept the idea that Seth et al. are good sources of information?

What evidence do you have that anything "Seth" has said or implied is actually true, and/or validates anything that can't be directly confirmed?

In my understanding/experience of the universe, there are many entities that would love to play around and pop into people's heads and drop information - of any type (other than really useful or accurate), just to get a reaction. Not everything on the other side is nice and wonderful and helpful.

First of all, I regret using the terms "bad beings/souls". Perhaps "undesirable" might have been better but likely not satisfactory to Shiningbrow's liking.

@Shiningbrow

"Of course, this could all be rubbish! I'm happy to have any of my assumptions or presumptions questioned or doubted, and definitely destroyed. Because that's what we should be doing to ANY statements made when they come about." I do not have any inclination to try and destroy anyone's assumptions or presumptions as this is an area of discussion where nothing can really be proven.

"and still have past life memories, it's pretty clear that those memories are still somewhere accessible - and fairly easily." "Fairly easily"? Oh, really?

"Were you offended/hurt/upset that I didn't accept your proposition, and meekly accept the idea that Seth et al. are good sources of information?" I, personally, never accepted the Seth material as a reliable source of information. It was just another source to be taken at face value. "Offended/hurt": not one bit, in my case. More irked by your "I-know-better-than-you-all" condescending general tone.

"What evidence do you have that anything "Seth" has said or implied is actually true, and/or validates anything that can't be directly confirmed? You are correct, of course. Now, if evidence of the existence of the so-called Lumanians comes to light... I will reconsider.

I will always reserve the right to question the pronouncements of a follower of scientology... amateur-dabbler, if you wish. If Scientology is so great and good, why isn't humanity at large benefitting from it? Why do you lend so much credence to scientology in the first place? To borrow your own words: "Just to play devil's advocate - perhaps that's a con as well to keep us from the real truth?? While so many new agers are trying to work out this and what to do with it, the real evil is still being perpetrated, and ignored!"

Hi Forrest.

Firstly - "First of all, I regret using the terms "bad beings/souls". Perhaps "undesirable" might have been better but likely not satisfactory to Shiningbrow's liking."

Well, I don't think it matters what term is used, the concept is still the same - we 'deserve' to be here, and not by our own will. It's the last part of that that's relevant, although the first is significant in that it's what could be used as propaganda that people may accept. It's a *very* different idea to "we're here to learn", for example. Now, if you have a different interpretation of it, then I'm all eyes.

"I do not have any inclination to try and destroy anyone's assumptions or presumptions as this is an area of discussion where nothing can really be proven."

Ok. I was going to post something about the 4 different theories of truth (that some use, and I teach as part of my subject specialisation) - Coherence, Cohesion, Consensus and Pragmatics. I could also discuss Empiricism v Rationalism... while we don't have 'proof' (never will), we can discuss (perhaps 'destroy') some ideas just out of pure logic - some things are true because of their definition. (red *is* the wavelength of light between 400-484THZ. If that's not the wavelength, then it's not red).

So, yes, we can't 'prove' Seth's claims. However, in some ways, we *could* disprove some of them. And that happens by first looking at the claims, and looking for evidence that is contrary to them. If Seth claimed that the Nazis won WW2 (with the definition of 'won' that we take for granted), then I would say that we have ample evidence to say it's been disproven. (and this isn't just about Seth - it's about any claim by anyone about anything)

The first step is to ask questions, and look for counter-examples. Some might see that as "trying to destroy someone's assumptions or presumptions".

"Fairly easily"? Oh, really?"

So, you *are* inclined to try and destroy someone's assumptions or presumptions....

But, anyway.... again, using logic and 'evidence' (whether that evidence is good or bad is a slightly different matter, but let's run with it for now - especially since even the concept of reincarnation hasn't been firmly established). Yes, I do claim 'fairly easily" - given the number of people who claim to have past life memories, and that at least some of those coincide with others'. The idea of reincarnation alone is sufficient to support the idea that those memories are still around. (and I'll come back to it shortly...)

"More irked by your "I-know-better-than-you-all" condescending general tone."

Ok, I get that (in more ways than one).

Are you "irked" by Jane Roberts' tone? Or Courtney's? (TBH, I do get irked by those. Especially CB's when he uses the term 'validates', when he actually means 'corroborates' - which really means, "some people got the same stuff, which seems to relate to what we're looking at")

This is going to go wayyyyy off-topic, and should be on the scio thread... but anyway.....

"I will always reserve the right to question the pronouncements of a follower of scientology... "

Well, obviously you have the right to question any pronouncements... but why especially scientology? Other than the extremely bad press it's had (the cult, that is), and perhaps even some of the sites and videos from disgruntled ex-members (of the cult, that is) - what do you actually know about it? I chose not to join the org when I was 17, because I could see that the cult was not a good place to be, and that it didn't live up to its ideals (or even ideas!) I could see that the mission was off-course. Other than my personal experience of that, I have a fair amount of second hand information (saying the same thing).

However, that's the management. I'm referring to scio as a set of skills and exercises. The same stuff (almost - there were 'adjustments' since) that Ingo Swann (OT VII) credited his improvements in RV to. Hal Puthoff was also a scientologist (apparently OT VII). So too was Pat Price (OT III). Is that merely a coincidence, that two of the world's best RVers were also scientologists..???

Sure, it proves nothing. And sure, Ingo did recant on his write-up that credits scio with having improved his RV ability significantly. And, sure, scio does have RV as one of the abilities regained at higher levels - *without* training.- and they've had this written up for a few decades now (at least since the 70s).

So, "If Scientology is so great and good, why isn't humanity at large benefitting from it?"

Firstly, we could ask that about a good many things - Silva method, Monroe's Gateway, Remote Viewing, yoga, meditation. However, for scio, the answer is a lot easier than the others - it got taken over by people who don't have our best interests at heart. This was clear (ha ha) decades ago, when there was a huge rift, and a good many scientologists left the org, and things got worse from there. It's also fairly well known that the FBI and other US agencies got their fingers into the pie, and started to cripple it. As I wrote above, I could see that they weren't anywhere near their ideals, or even ideas. (they actually go against their own written policies). And the greed??? Yeah, definitely taken over by bad ETs (well, ok, perhaps not... but it would make sense, especially given that one of the first abilities you get back is your timetrack - full memories of all your past lives, which you can access at will... Which is why the DTs are well known in scio).

'Why do you lend so much credence to scientology in the first place?"

Personal experience. Of fairly mundane things. Such as the ability to remain present and focussed in the here and now (I need a LOT more practice at this). To have much better recall of events in this current life - even recalling details that have very definitely been 'forgotten'. Which has extended to having 'memories' (we can argue whether they actually are or not) of lifetime events not of this present one.

"Just to play devil's advocate - perhaps that's a con as well to keep us from the real truth?? "

The problem with that is - scientology is not a set of beliefs - it's a set of actions, In good scio, you don't get *told* anything (except that Ron is awesome :p). You do the drills, exercises, or auditing - you get results. NO-ONE is supposed to place any value judgements on that result. The results have been fairly consistent across decades.

As I've indicated above and elsewhere.. the cult of scio (aka, the Church/org) is crap. But (at least some of( the things they do are effective, and do what they say they should. So, my advice is to find an independent, experienced person who is still doing it (auditing, training) - or even just get some of the materials off the internet and do it yourself (better with someone with you).